On this episode of The Mobile Home Park Lawyer, Ferd chats with Frank Rolfe, one of the biggest mobile home park owners in America. Frank gives his insight into mobile home park management and provides some helpful tips for the listeners.
“Success or failure often is about having a realistic expectation on risk and reward.”
HIGHLIGHTS:
0:00 – Intro
1:08 – Frank gives his background
2:52 – You need a realistic expectation about risk and reward
4:53 – Frank describes his day-to-day
6:37 – The best part of owning mobile home parks with turnaround deals is when you finish them after they’re fixed
8:18 – Decatur is supposedly one of America’s most declining cities, but affordable housing is doing really well there
9:10 – Frank goes into detail on a deal
12:27 – Frank explains what a ROC deal is (Resident Owned Community)
15:01 – Frank talks about MHP management structures
16:08 – You can distill the park business down to 5 gauges
18:50 – Frank wouldn’t buy a park that can’t pay it’s own way unless it was for a penny on the dollar
23:04 – Frank shares his views on the current economy
FULL TRANSCRIPTION:
Ferd Niemann: Welcome back mobile home park nation, Ferd Niemann here again, I’ve got a special guest for you today. This guest needs no introduction, but I’m going to do it anyway. He’s the fifth-largest owner of mobile home parks in the country. He has over 250 parks in 25 states, decades of experience, just a great guest here today. We’re lucky to have him. Please help me welcome Frank Rolfe. Frank, thanks for being here, appreciate it.
Frank Rolfe: Thanks for having me.
Ferd Niemann: No problem. Well, Frank, I think a lot of people who are listening, they probably know who you are, but maybe if you could give us a quick introduction of your background and then how you got into the mobile home space and how you’ve taken it from there.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. Well, I got into mobile home parks accidentally as most people do. So, I went to Sanford University, got a degree in economics, got out a year early, was going to write a business school application had to start a business. That’s what you did back in those days, back in the late 70s, early 80s, started a billboard company. Never went to business school, rode that thing for 14 years, sold it to a public company, and then was trying to come up with a new idea, something new to focus on. I built two billboards on a mobile home park called Glen Haven in Dallas. So, I had familiarity with that perspective. I’d done some favors for the owner in the past, mainly knocking on the door of the managers to see why he wouldn’t answer the phone. And I also knew from supply and demand of economics that I never saw MH zoning in Dallas. So, therefore, I knew that it was special. So, I called the guy up and he, in one phone call, sold it to me saying he would take a $10,000 down, a $400,000 purchasing, and carry $390,000 for 30 years. And that’s what launched me into the industry.
Ferd Niemann: That’s great. I actually, I did get a chance to see Glen Haven on one of your tours there with your mobile home university club. And that was great. And I know from hearing you talk about it on your podcast, that deal had a lot of hair on it, and one of them …
Frank Rolfe: It was a very hairy deal and even to this day, it definitely, you’ve seen it. It’s got quite a bit of hair on it.
Ferd Niemann: It was definitely very dense. The trash trucks can’t even get through to it.
Frank Rolfe: The Chewbacca of hairy deals.
Ferd Niemann: So that’s one thing I’d like to share with people is any tips or wisdom you can give as far as the school of hard knocks or lessons you’ve learned from that one. I know you learned a lot of lessons, is that park a good example to share some tips with, or maybe another one that you can …
Frank Rolfe: I think that’s a good example. And you know, I would harken back to the book. If you have not read it, it’s available by Sam Zell called Am I Being Too Subtle and basically success or failure often is about having a realistic expectation on risk and reward. So, Glen Haven. I didn’t know what I was doing. It had phenomenal amounts of risk, which was inherent in it, which I didn’t know. It had master-metered gas, and master-metered electric, and a horrible client base, and a difficult location. And it was flowing $2,000 a month negative when I bought it. But I lucked out in that case because, in the end, the profit potential was there, even though I didn’t even know what it was when I bought it. But over and over again on all these turnaround deals we’ve done, the overriding thing is you have to be able to pick your battles wisely. Want to pick things, that for the amount of risk and effort you do, and the turnaround, you have to make a huge amount of money. You know, that’s sellers’ formula. So, if you have a high risk, low reward, you should never do it. If you have high risk and high reward, then you might do it. And of course, if you have a low risk and high reward, you always do it. So, Glen Haven, fortunately, lucked out, but it could have been a horrible story, had it not had the profit potential.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah. And I remember that one, in particular, there’s still, I think there’s still a master-meter electric to this day, which is obviously…
Frank Rolfe: There is Master meter electric to this day. Although I did get the master-meter gas solution solved before the next guy bought it, I put in propane tanks. So, I dropped it to only one of two master-metered utilities.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. I mean, obviously, when you switched the utilities over to a better system, you’re doing value add and that’s when you get paid.
Frank Rolfe: Correct. That is correct.
Ferd Niemann: And I read Sam’s book based on your recommendation. And one of my favorite things in that book is that he says, every day you don’t sell an asset for a price somebody will pay you for it, you bought it.
Frank Rolfe: That’s exactly correct …
Ferd Niemann: I’ve sold like five of my parks in the last two and a half years based on that, where like, I like the business, I’m bullish on the business, I have some parks I want to buy of them all. But there were some of those I’m like, you know, it’s worth more to the other guy than it is to me. So, I made a decision to let them go.
Frank Rolfe: We do the same thing.
Ferd Niemann: I know you sold a lot of your portfolio as well. What does your day-to-day look like at this point? I know you do a lot of windshield time, driving your parks.
Frank Rolfe: My day to day is odd. I float around a lot. So, what I do is I’m very old-school. So, every night before the next day I take a legal pad. I title it with the date of tomorrow. I then put on, the first category, says trips, and the second category says calls. I put down everything I need to do that day and every call I need to make that day. And then to get really old-school on you, I take a highlighter and I highlight the essential must-dos, without-fail items in both categories. And that sets about my day, once I’ve completed the yellow highlighted, I moved to the next one down constantly multitasking often I’m on the phone while I’m doing the other items on it. And then at the end of the day, I evaluate what I got done and I do it all over again for the next day. I know people listening, typically millennial people will say, my God that’s antiquated and stupid, but that’s the only way I know how to do it. Cause I was traditionally trained on day-timers before the internet existed. So, I can’t get over that habit.
Ferd Niemann: That’s great. I do a similar thing and my whole team does. And you’ve probably read the book The One Thing by Gary Keller and it’s similar to the kind of like the Lee Ivy, and it wasn’t Rockefeller, it was Charles Schwab, the one that worked for Rockefeller. He kind of came up with, I think that system and or similar system. And I think time management is crucial, especially when you’ve got a bunch of balls in the air. Like I know you do. So, that makes sense. And what is, at this point, would you say the best part of your job? I know you’ve got operations, but you also have I think that the number one podcast, the number one University for this industry, so you’re obviously an educator like to public speaking. Is that your favorite piece or you like doing operations?
Frank Rolfe: No, actually the best part of owning mobile home parks, strictly turnaround deals, is when you visit them after they’re fixed. And, at that moment when they suddenly you know, gush forward pride of ownership. Which it’s not always the end of the movie, but you buy a real troubled property and you establish law and order and you start doing big physical improvements. And then at some point in the movie, you notice the residents are cleaning up their stuff, painting their home, putting it in carports. And you know that you’ve won. It’s kind of like in those war movies, right. You know there’s the extreme moment of battle where you blow up the German emplacement. And even though there’s still some snipers and things around, you know, that you’ve effectively won. That’s the best moment. I was in one of our properties recently out in Decatur, Illinois, one of the worst turnarounds we’ve ever done. And I was shocked to see someone come out of a home wearing a blue button-down shirt, khaki pants, and Sperry topsiders. And I was trying to figure out my brain, man, I’ve won this battle because I’ve got the L.L. Bean catalog for that a lot number 14. And so that made me feel good because then I knew I’d made money because clearly, the properties had a whole different value perspective when I’ve got the L.L. Bean guy coming out of the home, as opposed to the person who’s, you know, on heroin or something.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah. And Decatur, I’m from Quincy, Illinois. We used to play football against Decatur. And that was the year I was in high school. There was this big national fight between, I think it was a black family and white family and during the game, and it was a huge national spectacle and it was a big deal. So, Decatur got a bad reputation. So, you know, when you’re going there, you’re taking some arrows.
Frank Rolfe: Decatur always makes these lists of America’s most declining cities. Yeah. And I don’t really know why that is because I go there and it doesn’t look any more declining than any other American city, but it’s a testament to the need for affordable housing, right. Because we’ve sold a ton of homes in there, brought in a ton of people in there. But on the surface, every other business in America will look at Decatur at a 5,000-foot elevation and say, oh my gosh, you know, it had its heyday in like 1960 or something. But it’s still doing good for mobile home parks.
Ferd Niemann: That’s good. Tell me, but again, if you can share maybe details of that, maybe not the Decatur deal, but one of them where you can, you tend to talk a little bit about Glen Haven. I mean, how do you tackle a deal when you go in and I know, I also want to cover kind of your dials in the cockpit. I know you’ve talked about those before that are key to operations. Is operations is key to the business obviously?
Frank Rolfe: Glen Haven, the pivotal moment on that was when I got it from a negative to break-even on cashflow. And that deal, you know, I’ve probably talked about it too much and done too much. Let me give you a modern one, a newer one. The park that we just sold in Austin called North Lamar. It’s interesting because I can give the numbers on it because all of the properties when we sell them, we don’t give out the numbers because of property tax. But in that case, they were so stupid that they published the price, which makes no sense because Texas is one of the highest property tax states in the United States. We bought that deal, which was so horribly mismanaged for a little over $2 million. We bought it back in about 2015 ish, I believe 15, 16, somewhere in there. And it was an absolute disaster. The mom and pop had, they had no business sense, no pride of ownership skills, nothing. So basically, everyone was living in there in the most horrible conditions and the city of Austin didn’t do anyone any favor allowing it to exist like it did. So, we went in and we took away, you know, tons of roll-off dumpsters of debris. We redid the roads, change the signage, the whole deal then started raising rents. And we got a lot of flak for it. We were in the media there constantly for raising rents. But the problem was when we bought it, it was at $390, all bills paid. And the market in Austin is about $650, no bills paid. So, over a progression of years, we got the rent up to about $580, not including water and sewer, and then sold it to the residents for $6.2 million, I believe. And again, it’s just your typical trailer park turnaround story. Now that one had a bigger ending because that one, the rents could be pushed more than normal. You’re talking, you know, by the time that park has done, the rents will have effectively be doubled. But on top of that…
Ferd Niemann: What kind of cap rate did that sell on?
Frank Rolfe: It sold at a ridiculous cap rate, one that can’t be calculated using any form of American mathematical calculator. If you get a telescope out and you might be able to see the cap rate somewhere in the stars. The problem was that you know, Austin is considered a hot market. When you have hot markets, people sometimes get carried away with the heat, but that one also had the additional attribute. It was a political issue because Austin was trying to portray themselves as the person who loves all people rich and poor. And they found it to be very important that the residents could buy the property from us. So, it was actually purchased by the residents as what’s called an ROC or resident-owned community transaction and Austin threw in, I think a $2 million grant to make the deal happen on top of that. So, it was very odd. It shows the new sensibility about affordable housing, I guess, but also the fact that in today’s American political world, if you are on the right side of some mega trend, crazy stuff happens.
Ferd Niemann: And did the city throw in the grant as essentially equity, because I assume you had to get a non-recourse loan with that diverse buyer group.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah, actually, No, it’s a recourse loan. The way it works is, These ROC deals are fascinating. What you have is you have a series of non-profits like the Rockefeller Foundation, the Ford Foundation, and these people will co-sign notes at full recourse. If they feel you aren’t going to default on it. So, they’re the backbone of these transactions. There’s not a lot done. There’s about one done every month in the US. And you know, the residents have to organize, they have to elect officers. They have to vote to buy it, but they don’t really buy it because they don’t actually have any money and they don’t put any money into it. The money that’s put into it is done by nonprofits who are trying to, you know, make everything possible for them. So, they’re very strange transactions. And you know, we’ve done three of those to date and there’s nothing wrong with them, but they do take a long time. Contrary to what people think they’re very complicated. It’s not as easy as it would appear.
Ferd Niemann: And I think it seems like it would be complicated, I mean, that’s, you’re basically, you’re always kind of running your own little city when you have a mobile home park, but in this case, you are like running a city and you hand it over to a populist of both their own merits.
Frank Rolfe: You know what’s interesting is a guy called me recently. He was trying to buy a property or he ended up with a contract to buy in a state that has the first right of refusal. And low and behold ROC, wants to do ROC deal on it. And the way those deals work. And I told the guy, don’t worry. It probably won’t work. And I was exactly correct because most of the time the residents vote not to buy the property. So, they organize it, and they elect officers. They have a popular vote in, and I don’t understand it, but in many of these transactions right off the bat, they die because the residents vote that they don’t want to buy it. And I think they vote they don’t want to buy it because I think they don’t actually understand what it even means. But that happens a lot. We’ve had many failed attempts as well. And often it comes down to just the residents have no interest in actually buying it.
Ferd Niemann: Well, it’s interesting. I guess it makes sense.
Frank Rolfe: It really doesn’t.
Ferd Niemann: I mean it doesn’t make sense they don’t buy it, but it makes sense that they can’t figure it out because it’s… You’ve got a team full of advisors and lawyers and experienced financiers.
Frank Rolfe: I think it frightens them that they don’t understand the ramifications of it.
Ferd Niemann: Right. Well, Frank, can you dive in a little bit on operational efficiency? I know that you’ve got, you’ve got such a big team. I’ve been to your headquarters in Colorado and seen kind of the enterprise you’ve gotten different lanes, but really, from a small owner, the owner that has two, three, five parks, you can’t afford to have a full team. So, you’ve got to watch the operation, watch the money yourself. What tips can you have, and you’ve got the key points that you’ve touched on before, but to the audience here, if you could highlight those. It would be great.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah. The first thing I would point out to people is whether you have one park, which is how I started, and Dave started or five, which we both had. And then up now to 200, it’s the same process with a few layer changes. So, our most important person is the community manager. We call them the CM, the people on the field, but then we group every handful of CMs, typically five CMs, sometimes 10 CMs under another level of management called the district manager. And the district manager’s job is just to hire, train, supervise and, or fire those community managers. Because at some point it would outstrip your own ability as the owner to do that. Then if you’re big enough, you have collections of district managers that fall under what we call regional vice presidents or RVPs. But it all is the same as when we started on our very first park with that cm. It’s just a question of who manages the CM. That is the only thing that really changes. And when we’re managing these things, there’s basically five gauges on our dashboard. Just like your car has gauges on it. Your car probably shows how much gas you have, speed, RPM.
The park business you can also distill down to basically five gauges. The first, the big gauge of course is collections because the residents you know, there were in the affordable housing space, so they don’t have a lot of money. So, you have to collect the money from them sometimes without them being very happy about that concept. So, collections are key. Another one that’s key is water/sewer, which people would not realize that’s our single largest cost item. I, in fact, we have a weekly conference call with our water sewer team. We actually have a water sewer team, and we’re constantly looking for leaks, meter malfunctions, all kinds of stuff like that. So that, cause that’s our biggest line item. There’s more money at stake and water sewer than almost all our other expenses combined. Another one is our occupancy because you know, we’re constantly trying to fill, we like to buy broken parks and fix them. So, we’re always trying to fill them up. The next one is property condition. That’s just making sure the property looks its best because that gives me a better chance of selling or renting homes, retaining customers, keeping the city happy, making the bank happy, making the appraiser happy, making the future buyer happy. And then finally what we call BAD or budget actual difference. That’s a monthly exercise where we look at the budget, how we performed, what we did better, what we did worse, not worrying about the ones we did better on just the ones we did worse on. Why are we worse? Trying to figure out what happens. Sometimes we’re worse because we did good. For example, if I fill a bunch of lots, my water sewer costs, or other costs may go up because I got more people. And I will initially think, uh oh I got a leak. Well, no, wait, Nope, Nope I brought people in. So sometimes it’s that. But then sometimes it’s the simple fact we’re not doing as good as we could on selling homes, renting homes or whatever the case may be. And then you figure out your plan, like, what am I going to do to change this? It’s one thing to acknowledge that, what am I going to actually physically make this change? And then you try and make the change.
Ferd Niemann: Makes sense. I’ve listened to that before. And I think my favorite of those is that BAD. And that one of the challenges I’ve had with it is when you’re in the middle of a major turnaround. It’s like, man, I’m bleeding money like, oh, because I’ve already put in the next five concrete pads, I’ve already hired the install guy and I don’t have the houses sold yet. It’s a kind of an enlightening exercise that you look at it and you’re like, okay, now I know, like in that example, kind of like your water issue, like the money’s supposed to be going out at the moment, I’m going to say it’s an investment that makes me coming back in when I get the house on, when I get the house rented or sold. Do you modify? I know you have some parks that have already kind of become stabilized or do you modify how you look at all that based on the business plan if you will? I mean, if you’ve got a major turnaround, you’re probably not going to be cash flowing in the short run.
Frank Rolfe: Well, you have to. In other words, I wouldn’t buy a property that can’t pay its own way, unless it’s an extreme deal where we’re buying it for pennies on the dollar, it is a complete disaster, and then trying to bring it back to life. But if we’re not trying to, you know, hit it with electrical paddles to make its heart start again. We’re trying to buy it at a reasonable cap rate. Now the cap rate may be predicated on our first rent increase or some other assumptions. So, I mean, we’ve bought properties. Like the one in Austin is a perfect example. No one would have bought that park. We bought that park at a; I want to say four cap or something. So, it was totally predicated on getting the rents up. And so oftentimes we’ll look at that kind of stuff, but you know, the one thing I see people do that you don’t want to get in the mindset of doing that, that is buying something where you have to do all this stuff just to get it back to what you paid for it. So, we pass on those deals all the time. So, some guy comes over and says, yeah, here’s my deal. I’m a hundred bucks under market. And give me a four cap. And you say, well if I raise around a hundred, I’m only at a six cap or a seven cap why the heck would I even do it? A lot of times the seller wants you to give them the value for what they didn’t do yet. And that kind of irks them. I mean, I don’t even know why a property wouldn’t tell you. Yeah, I’m $200 under-market. That doesn’t mean anything to me. Don’t tell me about it.
Ferd Niemann: I literally had it. I was onsite an hour ago in a park and scrambled back home here. A guy just told me that, yeah, I’m $150 below market. I’m like, okay. He was, yeah so this is going to be worth. And he thrust some big number. He wants 14 million when you’re done, I want 3 million now. And I’m just like, how’d you come up with the valuation. I’m just trying to understand your method of valuation, it is kind of a big Delta. I said, well, there’s a lot of upside, like, yeah, that’s my upside. If I can carry out a successful business plan and sign a note and all this other stuff, it’s not going to raise, it’s not going to bank.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah. It all goes back to Sam Zell’s formula, right? I mean, if you’re going to take risks in life, you’ve got to have a reward for the risk. And if you want to do really low-risk deals like ELS does these days where they’re buying stuff, that’s completely stabilized, on the coast. The only, probably their biggest risk is a weather event, you know, but they only pay it like a 3% dividend. So, they buy on very, very narrow spreads. And you might say, well, how do they make any money with that? Well, I don’t actually know myself other than the fact that the American investors, stock investors is not sometimes the brightest light bulb. And so, I don’t know why, I mean, I can’t understand Tesla and many things in life, but other than those kinds of buyers, yeah, you have to make money with your stuff. You can’t buy stuff and break-even and then dream of it going up just to get back to what you paid.
Ferd Niemann: Right. And I think the REITs, I always feel like they just have their own different ball game because they have such a different cost to capital. That their investors are satisfied with getting a 3% return. I can’t raise capital and give somebody a three pref, let alone, even 3% all-in. It doesn’t really make sense.
Frank Rolfe: You know, to do a three is kind of odd because see if you’re going to do a three, they can buy it at a three cap and then they can finance some of this stuff now at a two-point something. So, they would be in all cash, they could do a three and then they have a slight bit of leverage. They might even get a little more than that, but, you know, we can’t make any big money with that. Again, that then goes back to me to a whole risk-reward. Those are huge enterprises, as I’m sure you’re aware running mobile home parks is not a glamour business. It’s not something that people will do for free. So, you know, I don’t know why, I guess I don’t understand why they allow themselves to do it at that, those kinds of low margins. And I mean again, they’ve done famously well, stocks have done extremely well here. One of the best runs of any of the rates over the last couple of years now. So, I can’t say anything wrong. They’re all great operators, but it kind of seems like they should probably set some benchmark, maybe a little higher than where they’re at. Just a little, I mean, just try and try and get a 5% cash-on-cash or something would be.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah, I don’t get it. They must be smarter than me. I just don’t know how yet.
Frank Rolfe: We will all find out in the end.
Ferd Niemann: Yes, exactly. And Frank, one more topic before I let you go, what is your opinion on the current market. I’m seeing what I feel like the pricing is getting crazy in a lot of circumstances, but I’ve only been doing this for six or seven years. You’ve been around a lot longer. You’ve seen ebbs and flows in the recessions. What are your macro-economic views on…
Frank Rolfe: Hear are my views. All right, I get the same question. First off, I’ve seen true cap rate compression with my own eyes. I saw it for the period of about 2004, right up to the 2007 collapse. And then the Great Recession. And when you have true cap rate compression, the cap rates fall below the interest rates. And that’s when I knew with my early portfolio, it was time to sell because cap rates were at four, loans were at five and six, who buys that? It’s like a no brainer. It’s absolutely crazy. I was doing deals. I sold one property where the appraisal didn’t make. So, the guy put in the money, the differential between the appraisal and the purchase price. Any logical buyer would have walked that deal and said, wait, the appraisals this much under I can’t do. But that was the go-go year. So, I’ve seen go-go. We’re not in go-go right now because there are still some restrictions on the engine and that’s the lending community. So, you know, the days of go-go lending haven’t returned in that manner for our industry, but yet you are going to see lower cap rates in the high-end institutional stuff. And that’s simply, you have so many institutional buyers chasing the 100 plus or more specifically the 200 plus communities that they’re driving those prices up through simple supply and demand.
So, I see the industry has got several personalities now where it’s become like a multi-personality person here. So, at the high end, on the high-end properties, you’ve got this institutional group. And, you know, so that’s one kind of pricing structure. They’re buying it at, at low cap rates, but not compression cap rates. Then when you ditch that aside, then the normal market is kind of like, it used to be. It’s about three-point spread stuff. I look at deals from people all the time doing park evaluations. And, you know, people are still bringing me deals that are often even 10 caps and 12 caps. But if you look at where they’re sourced from, they’re sourced from cold calling and direct mail and that type of stuff. So, you know, the brokers are all about money and they’ve kind of gravitated into the institutional space because that’s where the money is. So, it’s like, you’re new starting out Marcus and Millichap broker. He’s doing the, you know, the 30 and 50-lot stuff, but all of the big-time guys, they all want to do the big-time stuff. So, if you’re just starting out and you talk to the brokers, they will lecture you that, oh no, your expectations are terrible. Cap rates today are, you know, 5.2 or whatever the heck it is. Well, yes and no. Yeah If you’re an institutional buyer trying to spend a hundred million of capital, but not for the normal person.
So, you know, I’ve seen it again, I’ve seen the same cycle before even, this is the same cycle that we saw back during the cap rate compression day is that often the stuff that the brokers have is priced completely separately from the rest. But, you know, you see the same thing in lot rents. I’m sure you see that on your properties. I mean, in any market where I’m in the REITs and I mean, the actual REITs, UMH normally. Their rents are a hundred a month, more than ours, right across the street. So, it’s almost like we’re in two completely different industries. We have nothing in common. They pay their managers probably twice what we do. It’s just, it’s just odd. So yes, you know, the industry is always morphing and changing, but the biggest morph changes and what most people getting into it are not looking for. And that’s that high-end institutional stuff.
Ferd Niemann: Right. No, it makes sense. Great points, Frank. I appreciate it. Well, once again, thanks for having you on and how can people get ahold of you? I mean, you’re pretty much everywhere. How would you best like people to find you?
Frank Rolfe: You know, if you just go to www.mhu.com, I’m all over the darn thing. You know, that’s been my hobby now for what? 10, 15 years, my partner, Dave’s son, Brandon runs it all, does a great job with it. That’s always the best. I mean, I’m constantly putting new articles and videos and stuff on there normally from out in the field because it entertains me. So, if you go to www.mhu.com, you can’t not find me.
Ferd Niemann: I’m an MHU Bootcamp graduate, you think you’re going to be back live anytime in the near future?
Frank Rolfe: And that’s up to the United States government, because the answer is, we can’t do it until there’s a no-mask mandate. We learned it the hard way, we tried to do a live event. And then the week before the live event, we were told that the area we were going to hold it was back on a shutdown. So, we’re never doing that again because we then had to, we had to walk and pay all of the hotel and all the other costs. No, we’re not, we’re not doing it again until Dr. Fauci and everybody else says, and you can throw your mask in the trash, we are fine. So, when that will happen, it’s anybody’s guess. I know probably no time soon, but yeah, we’d love to meet and see people. Because that’s what we’ve always done historically. But until then, you know, I’m getting a lot of feedback, honestly from people who like the virtual better than the live event, mainly because of travel costs. And they also like having all the recordings of it. So, I don’t, we’ll have to let the people, the people tell us what they want to do when the masks are off. Because by then people maybe just so comfortable with the idea of online right? Online is taking over the world, basically.
Ferd Niemann: All right, Frank, thanks again. Appreciate it.
Frank Rolfe: Thanks for having me!
Ferd Niemann: You’re welcome.